Amp control question

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by mnewse, Oct 10, 2019.

  1. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    So I had an A3 when they first came out and now looking to come back to the Atomic A6. My question is, when I see the editor on youtube videos I dont see a resonance/depth control on amps that have one in real life, say the 5150 model, I see presence but not depth. Am I missing it in the videos?

    I guess the better question is, do the amp models in the amplifire have all the same controls that you would find on the panel of the amp its created after ?
     
  2. Jace Nuzback

    Jace Nuzback Senior Member

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    You're right, the amp models don't have every feature of the real amp model.
    Most of the two or three channel amps that were modeled only model one of the channels of that amp.
    You'll find that this is common on all amp modelers.
    That said, I don't think that every feature needs to be modeled and have parameters provided
    for it in order to create a fantastic sounding amp model.
     
  3. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    Right on, well I was happy to see the Archon model included, but the depth control on that amp plays a huge part in its tonal options, kind of a shame, also I wouldnt see the depth control being a non needed feature, I understand not having a bright switch, which should have an model with on and off bright switch, but your right most modelers dont offer it, and it misses a big mark. I dont see the need to change power transformers and swap virtual components, but I do believe amp controls offered should be included, just like the presence control.

    Thanks for replying though
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  4. Slartibartfarst42

    Slartibartfarst42 Well-Known Member

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    'That said, I don't think that every feature needs to be modeled and have parameters provided
    for it in order to create a fantastic sounding amp model.'

    I wish Atomic would take that advice with the effects!!!

    When it comes to effects, you take an effect that will usually have just a handful of controls and instead of duplicating that, you set it up with dozens of parameters to control. Please take a leaf out of your own book. Great effects pedals don't need endless parameters to create great effects so why do you insist on making it needlessly complicated when you thankfully don't take that approach with amps?
     
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  5. Jace Nuzback

    Jace Nuzback Senior Member

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    Personally, I agree with this!
    A while ago I made some FX presets to try and help with that situation:
    https://atomicamps.com/forum/index.php?threads/fx-presets.2026/
    Also these stage volume presets have settings for ALL FX blocks:
    https://atomicamps.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-stage-volume-presets.2705/
    http://atomicamps.com/forum/index.php?threads/stage-volume-presets-2.2706/
    Jace
    P.S. I love your user name!
     
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  6. eel

    eel Member

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    Two humble suggestions without changing the functionality of the unit:

    I wonder if a separate FX guide would be worthwhile? It could be bundled with presets for FX like you have released previously.
    If it explained the FX blocks deeper with normal english and then went through the settings to recreate some commonly used FX that would be a great starting point. Especially handy if it came with 3 presets with examples of 3 commonly used FX for each block. I found Matticus guide on recreating certain famous FX the most useful tool for this. Otherwise, those of us with minimal understanding of FX have to research the parameters for a certain unit to try and recreate it.

    Another "FX settings" thread would probably help too. That way if someone figures out how to recreate a certain chorus pedal they can post the settings and maybe a preset too. Then you could just search/browse the FX thread for chorus settings. Could also be a place for those of us who struggle with time/technology to ask more knowledgeable members to assist with dialling in certain sounds.

    Personally, the deep editing in the Atomic is a plus. I may never have the time available to fully utilize it but I can appreciate it allows people like Matticus to recreate virtually any effect out there. That's why I think it's more of a support issue. Create a guide list or knowledgebase of settings for common fx and the ability for users to hunt down sounds with the assistance of others and maybe that will be a good compromise?
     
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  7. Dagwin

    Dagwin Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree, the manual can use some reworking. Make a 2-page quick-start guide and a more clear and elaborate manual that you can turn to to fine tune effects, get recommended settings for amp models (from their real world counterparts), explain the options to hook up a looper, show how to setup an expression pedal etc. And have some pictures in the manual ;-)
     
  8. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    Thanks for all the replies, I have decided at this time the amplifire is not the product for me. Its a shame, I was coming back to Atomic because the amp modeling is really good and the touch and feel is also incredible, but so many shortcomings from basic things. I read Jaces comments as "were are fine with status quo, no need to excel, we are content with following competition" or even "you get what you pay for" I am not here to mention other products/companies because I have 0 agenda and I find that disrespectful.

    All modeling companies I think have a short fall as the models provided out of the box should match the source 100% with all knobs at noon, meaning when a first time customer open up the atomic box and plugs it in they should immediately have the experience of say a JCM 800 and G12-75 cab as the designer heard it. I know all the things such as monitors, cords etc come into play, but even creating the source tone on a common monitor such as a Yamaha HS series would be helpful. I picked the Yamaha cause theyre flat and mid level. Also effects, if you have a model of a TS808 it should have volume, tone, and a gain control and set up out of the box 100% as the source, now you can offer a deeper parameter and like others are saying give examples of how you can take that TS808 and use the deep parameters to mimic other modded variants.

    Going back to offering the depth/resonance control on amps that offer it is also important as stated above. These are necessary controls thats offer the character of that amp, for instance a 5150 with resonance at 0 is way different than a 5150 with resonance at 5, and is part of that amps character. Why offer a presence control? Is just because other companies did, but you really dont know why? Is the presence not a poweramp high end control? Then why not offer the resonance which is the same thing but the low end?

    I will keep an eye on atomic in the future and hope there is an evolution but for now I have other solutions that offer me a better result, I cant move backwards in my gear.
     
  9. Dagwin

    Dagwin Well-Known Member

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    You will find limitations in other modelers as well ;-)
    Each have their own advantages and disadvantages.
    The Amplifire misses some options perhaps, but others have so many options that you completely get lost as a newcomer.
    And if it sounds good, do you really care about a missing option ?

    That being said, I wouldn't mind a firmware update with some new or updated amp models :p
     
  10. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    Why is everyone hung up on other modelers? Please understand I am not trying to be an a-hole, I am just real forward or blunt. Im not talking about other modelers I am talking about the Atomic, Helix isnt on my radar because of what is not there. If I buy a model of a car I want an accurate model of said car, not "even though we didnt give all the correct pieces you can still build a cool car"
     
  11. Slartibartfarst42

    Slartibartfarst42 Well-Known Member

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    I think your view of the Atomic is a bit harsh but you’re entitled to your opinion. Compared to me, I think you’re perhaps missing the point of a product like the Atomic. I can only speak for myself but your comments have encouraged me to ask myself the question: 'Am I really wanting an amp model that perfectly duplicates the original amp?' For me, the answer is a resounding 'No!' I honestly don't care if the Brit800 is an exact duplicate of a JCM800 because I've never actually played a JCM800, I'm never likely to play a JCM800 and frankly, I don't really care if I ever get to play one or not! What does concern me about the Brit800 amp model is that it delivers a very high quality tone that allows me to dial in something, fairly easily, that is evocative of classic Marshall tones of that era. To my mind the Atomic does that and does it extremely well and at a price point that is lower than its competitors and a fraction of the price of any of the real amps. It's also significantly better for my back!


    The same argument goes for the controls. I really don't care if the controls are exactly the same as the original amp, as long as I can get the tone I'm after relatively easily. Having the controls the same for each amp model merely makes it easier for me to dial in the tone I want and that's important to me because I want to play my guitar, not spend the rest of my life tinkering with settings to make me sound like I'm using a particular amp or I'm a particular player. If the 5150 model doesn't have a depth control, who cares? On an Atomic you have almost endless other parameters you could adjust to compensate for that omission that don't exist on the original amp or if you were adjusting all those parameters with a real 5150, you'd be using a pedalboard the size of Nebraska!!!


    Again, this is only my view but I LOVE my AA6 precisely because it doesn't offer me endless amps I'll never use and even a technological dinosaur like me can understand the controls for any amp model. The fact that the controls are the same for them all simplifies my life considerably. I've heard people on this forum go on about wanting more amp models for ages but perhaps I'm the exception because my message to Jace and all the guys at Atomic is DON'T give me more amp models and DON'T make the controls any more complicated. By all means try to improve the quality of what's already there but I really don't want an Atomic with the same number of amp models Line6 offer because as the volume goes up, the quality will go down. Keep it limited but make it the best it can be. I'm so keen on this as an approach that one of the few things I desperately want Atomic to change is the effects I mentioned earlier in this thread. They really are a pain in the backside as the manual, to someone of my very limited knowledge, is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. I fail to see why any Noise Gate needs more controls than the single knob you find on an ISP Decimator. It’s the best Noise Gate I’ve ever used and it’s also the simplest. The same goes for things like Delay and Chorus. I’ve never spent fortunes on effects so the best of those effects I’ve ever used were the old Hardwire items that were criminally underappreciated by many guitarists at the time. In each case there were very few knobs to adjust and the results were spectacularly good so why do these effects on an Atomic need to have a million different parameters to adjust that use language that only a sound engineer can follow? I am a passionate believer in the maxim of keeping it simple and making it the very best it can possibly be. Atomic effects don’t do that and it’s not like all those extra parameters improve the end product, which is presumably why so many users on here still use either stompboxes or things like the Helix or a Boss for effects.


    Not convinced? Look at it this way, all those extra parameters make it considerably harder to get a good quality effect out of an Atomic and its reputation for effects is generally poor. Conversely, the controls for the amp models are beautifully simple and the Atomic has a strong reputation for the quality of its amp modelling. Less is more as they say! If you want to have controls duplicated and a billion amp options, by all means buy a Helix or Fractal but as that blind test on another thread proved, you’ll also get worse tones. Alternatively, by all means spend a fortune on a real 5150 and live with all the limitations that comes with that choice but it’s not for me. If someone offered me a free 5150 instead of my AA6, I’d take the 5150, sell it, buy another AA6 and pocket the difference. There is no way I’d live with a real 5150, JCM800 or Soldano etc. when I could have the convenience, flexibility and quality of my Atomic.

    Rant over!
     
  12. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    Your very right, the Atomics Marshall is great I would say damn near dead on and offers all the controls you would find on an 800. Your also correct, if you can ne happy with low expectations it's a good unit, but I am picky when someone says I modeled an amp so this is xxx but I took the liberty to not include 1 big thing.

    First, the modeling is very good, I haven't knocked the sound of the device at all, I'm assuming Jace is the amp guru from what I saw on boards, and he's very smart obviously way smarter than me, but what dumbfounds me is, if the depth/resonance is considered an extra option then what's a pres control? Second if you ever played an Archon you would know all the knobs have a reaction to each other, so therefore it will never sound close to source, so is it more a profile than a model?

    I do care about authenticity in what it says to be, and I was asking a question originally that could of been just said as no. I have been with all the modelers on the market and was coming back because I remembered liking it a lot and since the years and the videos I've heard it's gotten better, but I guess maybe I'm spoiled from what I'm used to or expect. I'm glad you love it
     
  13. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    I don’t see how adding more amps would make the AA any harder to use. It would make the amp pull down list longer, but is that really a concern? I only use a few of the amps we currently have but there are a couple others they could model that I would use. There are also many others that they could add that I wouldn’t touch and others would appreciate. That’s the thing about modeling, most users settle on just a few presets for most of their playing, but you need to have the capability for a lot more variety since most of us settle on different ones.

    Making the default presets better also wouldn’t make it harder to use, and might make it easier for new customers to find a good tone they like. I see no downside to making the defaults sound more like the way people are likely to dial in the real thing.

    Adding more amp parameters does make things more complicated to dial in, on a real amp, or a modeler. My solution to that issue for both the amps and the effects would be to have an editor with a basic mode and an advanced mode. “Click here to enter the rabbit hole!” This of course assumes relatively unlimited coding resources that could overhaul both the modeling and the editing software and maybe also the user interface. I don’t think that is the case at Atomic so I am not expecting such a big change any time soon.

    From my perspective, the AA6 sounds way better than the Helix, costs way less than a Kemper or Axe III, and does more than I need it to do. Sure it could be better but it is already the best fit for my needs so I can hardly complain.
     
  14. Slartibartfarst42

    Slartibartfarst42 Well-Known Member

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    I think my point with more amp models is that it's a matter of resources. A company the size of Line6 can devote a lot of resources to R&D so they can develop lots of amp models and also improve what's already there. Atomic are nowhere near the same size so don't have the same resources and as a result, they have to pick their battles. I think this is the philosophy behind the AmpliFire in the first place - recognising that they couldn't compete on volume with the big boys but they could beat them on quality. I'd like them to continue doing that and my fear with adding lots of new amp models is that it will partly divert resources that could be used to improve quality but also that Atomic will lose its USP. If Atomic start including dozens of amp models they go up against Line6 in more direct competition and I suspect that's a fight they can't win. They're better off sticking to the original idea of offering fewer options but key amp models that cover all the bases that are of superior quality to the opposition.

    In terms of simplifying controls, I really do think that will help. People commonly say that the effects on an Atomic are poor compared to the opposition but I don't think they are; I think they just seem worse because a myriad of controls means it's damned hard to get a great sound out of it.

    Finally, with regards to the OP, I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong, it's just a different perspective and both are equally valid. I play in a covers band so I cover songs from a range of bands. I suspect that you would want to play each song as close to the original as you could and that's perfectly valid but my approach is very different. My view is that it's a covers band, not a tribute act so I'll play each song the way I want to play it and put my own stamp on it. That means, in this case, my choice of amp and my choice of effects and as long as it sounds good and the audience like it, I'm happy. I take the same approach to the solos in these songs. On iconic songs like 'All Right Now' I play a solo that is very close to the original but it's still my interpretation whereas on a song like 'Rebel Yell' I totally ignore the original solo and do my own thing. I think my approach to my Atomic is very similar to this so I don't worry about sounding like a particular amp or a particular player, I just want tones that are good for me.
     
  15. lespauled

    lespauled Well-Known Member

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    You might want to look into a Kemper. EXACT sound of an amp, in whatever configuration it has during the amp profiling stage.
     
  16. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    My point in this isn't to change anyone's mind or convince them not to like the unit, but to let the company know why I wouldn't use the unit.

    The tech in atomic seems to be more of a tone capture with an implied eq that they layered say like mooer preamp than a true model say like fractal. I didn't like the Kemper, after a year I realized I missed the modeling in my fractal. I think atomic has equal sound to kemper and fractal and the feel is closer to kemper which is known to feel incredible, but again I wanted modeling and the atomic being less options than a fractal appealed to me.

    I use an Archon so my needs was having a digital model for studio work or home while my amp is somewhere else. Waves has a great prs offering but it's not portable
     
  17. lespauled

    lespauled Well-Known Member

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    Missed modeling, as opposed to profile of a real amp? Ok. Maybe it's because modelers cover a lot of mistakes that real amps and profiles do not. They give you what you put in.
     
  18. mnewse

    mnewse Member

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    Yeah I liked the tones in the kemper but I could get the same out of the ax8 and have almost real amp control. It helped playing through a power amp and cab, the depth/resonance helped in it being more real, the kemper cuts off from amp and cab in a weird place.

    I was rough tracking ideas, this is just a friedman be od Deluxe into an own hammer impulse
    Listen to Be Od Deluxe by mnewse on #SoundCloud
     

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