Noise SUPRESSION instead of just a gate

Discussion in 'Wishlist' started by fearuvthedark, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see an additional mode in the GATE block so you could switch between a noise GATE and a noise SUPPRESSOR. I find that with a lot of the high gain and metal tones the gate is only effective when you finish playing a passage. While you're playing though, you still get all the noise that would be present if the gate was off because it's open while you're playing. But a suppression algorithm instead would cure this. Not one like the NS-2, but more like the Decimator G-String. It kept things quiet on my Marshall both when I was playing a passage and when playing nothing. Please Marc, give us a good noise suppression algorithm :)
     
  2. wazzakebnezza

    wazzakebnezza Member

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    Sounds like a good idea
     
  3. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    Since it seems to take other pedals so well, I'm gonna pick one up and try using just a Decimator instead of the built-in Gate. If it works like it did with my actual tube amp then problem averted. Still, right now it's driving me nuts because the gate's only good when you're not playing. When you are there's so much noise in the signal it makes it sound horrible.
     
  4. bioboy

    bioboy Well-Known Member

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    noise suppressor and noise gate work on different way, noise suppressor is design to cutting some freq when you play and when not in order to try to eliminate the "wrong frequency" on the fly... this is something perfect with traditional pedalboard (is the analogic way)
    a noise gate is design to cut all the frequency in a certain range all the time before any other things in the chain this is what you need in studio and when you use a digital machine like the Amplifire I don't think that a noise suppressor is something you can use with a digital box like AA with satisfaction anyway you can try to put a NS2 in the loop and before the AA input to check if this is something u can use (to me the isp decimator is not the "right" device for AA cause it is a sort of noise gate and you get better chance to use the internal gate for that matter)
     
  5. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    I disagree and your studio example is why. When recording and then playing back is when you hear all the noise. I've been using modeling/processors for over 15 years and there is a difference between a 'gating' and 'suppression' effect on digital modelers. You can see this in a POD HD500X for example. The Decimator is also not a noise 'gate'. It is in fact a suppressor and when used properly I never got the extra noise present in my signal like it is with the AA. The gate in the AA is only good for when you're NOT playing. If you're running high gain than it really doesn't help keep the noise out while you ARE playing. I'll try a G-String II in front of the AA linked to a regular Decimator II sitting in the FX Loop, this is how I used to run it with my Marshall stack.
     
  6. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    To the point as to whether or not it will work the same with the AA like it did with the Marshall/pedals, we'll see but you're probably going to be right on the money on that one. Since it's "modeling" these amps/pedals/FX and characteristics, the inherent noise may simply be part of that and can't be tuned out with actual pedals. But I've got to try, lol!!!
     
  7. bioboy

    bioboy Well-Known Member

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    I will not look like a wise guy but if you re-read my post above will definitely find some interesting advice;)
     
  8. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    As it turns out, seems Ibanez wiring is a bit noisy. I did some testing between an RG I wired up and one that is still stock and the stock one was much noisier. So I re-wired it and put in a Dimarzio Tone Zone/Air Norton combo and wow is that guitar quiet now! This helps a ton as now I can run the built-in gate at a lower threshold and don't hear the background noise anymore. @bioboy I'll try your suggestion this weekend and post the results to see how the AA3 reacts :)
     
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  9. bioboy

    bioboy Well-Known Member

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    fearuvthedark here my studio config that I used with different machines and could be usefull even with AA ;)

    Boss NS2 signal chain:
    Guitar jack--->NS2 input / NS2 output--->Multieffect Return / Multieffect Send--->NS2 return / NS2 send--->Multieffect guitar in

    ISP Decimator signal chain:
    Guitar jack--->Multieffect guitar in / Multieffect Send--->ISP Guitar in / ISP Guitar out--->ISP Deci in / ISP Deci out-->Multieffect Return
     
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  10. Wyatt McConnell

    Wyatt McConnell Senior Member

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    I don't want to get into a pointless fight, but...the ISP Decimator is simply a noise gate. From the ISP FAQ page:

    QUESTION:
    How do the NS2 and the Decimator work?

    ANSWER:
    Both the NS2 and the Decimator work on the Masking principle, which means that when you play the signal will mask the noise and the Decimator works like an automatic volume control that will reduce the volume when the signal gets close to the noise floor. The Decimator is far more adaptive than the NS2 so it should be better but I would listen to some of the clips on line and or test a unit if possible to see if it will solve your problem.

    ISPs claim to fame is that they do a better job of tracking the guitar input to tell when the gate should close, and they do a better job of controlling how the gate closes...but its still just a gate. Unless you have noise at a specific frequency that is outside the frequency range of the guitar, pulling out just the noise and leaving the guitar behind will be...a challenge.
     
  11. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    So is 'noise suppression' just considered something more like 'hiss removal'?
     
  12. bioboy

    bioboy Well-Known Member

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    One moment the answer is no
    the noise gate is a fixed gate that work at the beginning of the chain in order to cut and release all the unwanted frequency in the user setted range
    the noise suppressor is a sort of "not fixed noise gate" that use an algorithm to move the gate dinamically when you play and must be placed between input and send return "see my post above" (in this way the pedal can dinamically compared the input signal pre and post pre-amp section)
     
  13. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    Cool, that clears it up for me a little bit. Definitely makes a bit more sense now. Thanks guys!
     
  14. Wyatt McConnell

    Wyatt McConnell Senior Member

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    "noise suppression" is just a term that makers of gates use. There are some other noise suppression systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_reduction) but if its a guitar pedal advertising itself as a noise suppressor...its just acting as a gate (and thus a noise suppressor).

    I disagree with the above description of how the loop part of those noise gate pedals work. The point of the loop is that the signal you want your gate tracking to determine if it should be opened or closed is your clean guitar signal, NOT the signal coming out of your super hissy overdrive pedal. But if you gate at the very front, before you hit your hissy overdrive pedal, then even when the gate is closed, you're going to have a lot of hiss coming through your speakers because overdrive pedals (and high gain preamps) create a lot of hiss by their very nature. So the pedals have a guitar input and output, which is basically like a "through" so the pedal can monitor your clean guitar signal. But the gate only acts on teh "loop" part of the pedal, so you put all your noisy stuff in that loop so that the gate still shuts out the hiss when it closes, even though its being operated by monitoring your guitar signal.

    There are frequency dependent gates -- you could have a gate that's open/closed position is controlled only by signal within a specific frequency range, for example. You could probably have a gate that only filters out signal at a specific frequency, but I wouldn't really see the point of that...why wouldn't you just want that filter to be "always on" (i.e., just use an eq) rather than gated if you have a constant noise at a specific frequency range you're trying to get rid of?
     
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  15. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    The main goal I was trying to achieve was to basically have the background "noise" not be present whether I'm playing or not. What I was hearing in my sound previously was, when I play and the gate is open all of the sound came through, noise included. I could really hear it good during high-gain lead patches. Admittedly, I was confused between noise 'gate' and 'suppressor' before starting this thread, so I though I was looking for more of a 'suppression' effect. As I've learned more about this (again, due to this thread), it seems that a properly wired/grounded/quiet guitar is the key starting point as now I don't hear it near as bad and can lower the threshold on the gate. There's still some background 'hiss' I'd like to get tuned out and not quite sure how to go about it. Still going to experiment with a Decimator and NS-2, maybe see if I can quiet things just a tad more before going in to the AA3 and see if that helps. Thank you again to both of you for helping explain the difference between gates and suppressors :D
     
  16. Wyatt McConnell

    Wyatt McConnell Senior Member

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    If you're fighting 60 cycle/powerline/transformer hum, this thing can work (because it knows the exact frequency to target...60 Hz and harmonics thereof): http://www.ehx.com/products/hum-debugger
     
  17. fearuvthedark

    fearuvthedark Well-Known Member

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    That may be the ticket. Definitely would be handy to have, regardless.
     

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