Firebox or AA3

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by Babelfisch, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. Babelfisch

    Babelfisch Member

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    Hello,

    I need some advice.
    I play through a board with a Boss ms-3 and a fulltone ocd into the clean channel of a Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue, getting most of the dirt via the ocd and the drives in the ms-3. As a beginning band we will do some small gigs with little equipments and no posiiblity for micing the amp, but needing a monitor for our half-deaf :) drummer...
    As far as I understand I could go with the output of the ms-3 with one channel in the amp, if I just take the other output in the mixer it will lack the amp and cab, because the ms-3 has no ampsim. So I think about using an amplifire for going into the mixer with cabsim AND without cabsim into the Blues Deluxe Is this possible? If yes: I prefer the Deluxe Reverb Sound, will it be a problem to chose this sim in the ampflire and go into the front input of the Blues Deluxe, or do I need to skip the preamp of the blues Deluxe? How near will I get the sound this way to a Deluxe Reverb? I hope to get a better sound AND resolve the problem with the missing amp micing on gigs. Does this sound logical to you? I have no experience so far with amp-modelers.
    If my thoughts are right, which device would you choose?
    I could get
    a) a Firebox for 230 €
    b) an Amplifire 3 for 310 €
    At the moment the firebox would bei sufficient, but I like the idea to change the amplifire models via midi via the ms-3. As I like the reverbs and modulations of the ms-3 I don't need those of the amplifire. A pity that I cant change the firebox via midi.
    What would be your advices?

    Thanks

    Michael
     
  2. Slartibartfarst42

    Slartibartfarst42 Well-Known Member

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    Based on your description and aspirations, I'd say that the AA3 or AA6 would be of more use, certainly in the longer term. Having said that, there are some things to consider:

    1) If you're using any kind of amp modelling, you certainly don't want to be going into the front of a conventional amp.
    2) Proper amps can work well if you go through the effects return but still keep the Power Amp sim turned on, on the Atomic as it seems to sound better that way. I also found keeping the cab sim turned on helped too, even though I was using a proper cab. At first I thought it was just me but a surprising number of people seem to have found the same thing.
    3) I started by using the Atomic as an 'option' to run alongside my Orange valve amp but once I tried it straight to an FRFR system I realised that I was doing little but breaking my back carting a valve amp around. Was the tone better through a proper valve amp? Perhaps, but the difference is so marginal when you're using an Atomic that it's just not worth being tied to a proper amp. I can turn up to a gig and I'm set up in just a few minutes with a huge variety of awesome tones at my disposal while the other guitarist is still lugging his amp out of the car. I plug the pedalboard into a Laney IRT-X monitor and the run a DI to the PA, turn it on and I'm good to go. Absolutely nobody can tell which of us is using a 'proper' amp and because I can tailor a preset to suit a specific song, I'm far less compromised so a lot of the time I think I sound quite a bit better. I found that with modelers, people assume they're a poor substitute based on something by Digitech or Boss they once tried but if you commit to a high quality unit like the Atomic, devote the time to learning the unit and getting good presets, there's really no going back. I will never use a valve amp of any description again. Even if someone gave me a free boutique valve amp, I'd just sell it, keep the money and continue with my Atomic; I'm THAT happy with what I have.
     
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  3. Dave_5150

    Dave_5150 Senior Member

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    AFB is great as a two channel amp as part of a pedal board. For anything more complication you'd be better with one of the AA range. The AA3 is at the limit of it's processing power so whilst it is still supported for new amps you won't get complex new effects such as the recent pitch block.

    I've used Atomic products live and for practice for a number of years with great results. Always direct to the desk with a personal mix to a FRFR monitor and never into a guitar amp as I don't like what I hear that way.
     
  4. wordlesspoet

    wordlesspoet Well-Known Member

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    Babelfisch,
    Looking at the back panel of a Boss MS-3, I see a couple of options:
    1. Use the Send of loop 2 or 3 (assuming OCD in loop 1) to send to an Atomic device to the board and the normal L/mono output to the Blues Deluxe. If the MS-3 allow for a send with no return on that loop.
    2. Use the R output to Atomic device and L to Blues Deluxe.

    If neither of those appeal to you, I know that you can assign different cabinet IR treatments to different outputs in the AA3/6/12. So, amp sim+CabIR to XLR and amp sim only to aux. But, If I am reading the manual correctly, amp sims are sent to both.

    Option 3 with the AA3:
    Using the editor software, place the loop before the amp sim block. Run the MS-3 into the AA3. Run the Send from the AA3 loop (it is before the amp sim block, so no amp modeling or cab IR on it) to your Blues Deluxe and nothing to the return. Run the XLR out of the AA3 to the board with the amp sim of your choice. The DR model with some compression sounds fantastic.

    Don't remember enough about how the AFB works as I now have an AA6. Used to have the AFB. The manual is online for both units.

    Now for something completely different...
    Definitely get SOMETHING from Atomic. You will likely never turn back.

    My experience:
    1. I had been using tube amps that I had built by hand for more than a decade and plenty of tube amps before that.
    2. Dabbled with modeling going back to Line 6's 1st Flextone series. Went back to tube amps, convenience be damned. The modeling just felt wrong. Sounded OK, felt bad. Lacked the interaction that we love about tube amps.
    3. Got really intrigued by the size of the AFB. Bought one.
    4. Holy Cow! This thing is great. I am going to spend some time just going direct to see what I can do with it.
    5. Months pass...let's see if I have just been away from my handmade fussed over amps for too long.
    6. Holy Cow! The AFB sounds great at any volume and sounds just as good as my amps and they are a pain in the tail.
    7. What if I could change sounds/amps/cabs via midi?
    8. Bought AA6, sold AFB, haven't looked back and couldn't be happier with the sound AND feel that I am getting. Still prefer it to my amps and other amps I have played.
    9. Amazing.
     
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  5. Babelfisch

    Babelfisch Member

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    Thanks for your advices!
    Wordlesspoet, at the moment I have a setup with 4cm with the Blues Deluxe Preamp in Loop 3 and Dirt Pedals in Loop 1 and 2 of the MS-3, the modulations are after the dirt this way. As far as I understand I dont need the Preamp of the Blues Deluxe at all so I could spare the Loop 3. With your options 1 and 2 I would have the ampsims after the modulations from the ms-3. With option 3 as you describe I would also have the modulations after the amplifire. If I put the amplifire in Loop 3, I have the modulation after the dirt but wont have the modulations of the ms-3 on the xlr out of the AA. I would need a solution where I get the following chain: Git-PreDirtEffects-OCD-Ampsim-Modulation/Reverb-Out to Amp without Cabsim and Out to Mix with Cabsim. Any Idea?
     
  6. wordlesspoet

    wordlesspoet Well-Known Member

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    With that set-up, 2 things:
    1. If you had to have Mods/reverb from MS-3, then you would have either cabIR or no cabIR on both outputs (Deluxe and PA).
    2. If you bought the AA, the mods/reverbs in the unit are very well executed. You could use the AA for mods and reverb and set up the AA to send no cabIR back into the MS-3 and have cabIR on the send to the PA. (AFB has fewer options for mods and verbs)

    One other option:
    1. Git-PreDirtEffects-OCD-Deulxe Preamp-Modulation/Reverb-Out to Amp and Out to an AFB/AA with only the power amp modeled. This would allow you to use the Deluxes pre-amp, which I assume you like, the Deluxe power amp/speaker for stage volume and have a well modeled power amp and cabIR sent to the PA with all effects/pre-amp being the same.

    If an AA6 is not financially an option, I would suggest the AA3 for 80 Euros more than the AFB. It does a lot more than the AFB and is still not that large.
     
  7. Babelfisch

    Babelfisch Member

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    The other option would mean the AFB/AA is not at all involved in my stage sound (Blues Deluxe) but only for PA/Monitor? This could work fine
     
  8. wordlesspoet

    wordlesspoet Well-Known Member

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    While I have not done the "One Other Option" idea personally, it should work as described. You would have no amp modeling nor Cab IR involved with your stage sound.

    Both sends from the delay/rev portion of the MS-3 would need to be mono to have the same content on stage and in the PA.
     

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